Naming-wise I like prefixing VC4: for the "game data" articles, kind of giving them a pseudo namespace. Chapter names have in-game English titles, so I'm using them as-is (still possible that the English localization will change the name later, in which case we'll just have to rename the articles, and add a trivia note about different official English spellings). For mission names there wasn't any in-game English, and any translation I attempt (or any other Japanese-fluent wiki contributor comes up with) has a high chance of not exactly matching what the English localization will end up using, so I decided to follow the VC3 example and use the original Japanese names for now, and we will just have to rename them when the English localization become available.
The biggest possible controversy/debate here would be the prefix system. I would propose that they are used only for articles specific about game-specific data/system, and do not apply to articles for lore or real world things.
It seems on this wiki often the Biography section simply contains a character's profile description or in-game "Personnel" data, as opposed to being actual biography (I just checked, English VC1 doesn't call it "Biography"). And then there are things that are partially in-game text but partially edited, which from a copyright/license perspective can technically be an issue (derivative writing).
I doubt the wiki would actually get into trouble for in-game text. Whereas if there are source book or art book text, those would be have a higher potential for copyright problems. There's a difference between documenting information found in a book, versus "plagiarizing" the text of the book.
I would suggest official in-game text (or other official/copyrighted text) be placed in <blockquote> tags (and identify where it is quoted from, so that people would only edit it to correct any quoting mistakes). The in-game "Personnel" text would belong in "Profile" but not "Biography".
"Biography" would be a main article section that is merged with "History" and/or "Story", and avoid direct copy (and shallow edits) of copy-righted text. Some characters, especially squad members that aren't central to the main plot, might only have "Profile" descriptions without a "Biography".
The <blockquote> tag is currently used on some weapon articles such as Lancaar. The css rules would add a background color for the blockquoted, whereas currently it only gets an indentation that isn't always very visually distinguishable.
One example is Rosie. Should her primary article be Brigitte "Rosie" Stark and have Rosie redirect to it? or should it be the opposite?
I can't lose them too... Not again. The following article contains significant spoilers and/or ending details of Valkyria Chronicles 4. If you don't want to get shot, tread carefully!
Another example is "Kai". In chapter one it was made quite clear that it wasn't her real name, and there seemed to be another "Kai". The Kai we start the game with, her real name is Lina Schulen.
In this case I think it is super justified for Kai Schulen to be a disambiguation page. If Claude simply say "I got this pencil from Kai some time ago" with no additional context, I would have no way to guess which Kai he is talking about.
What I'm not sure is, does the female Kai's article get named [[Kai Schulen (fake)]] or [[Kai Schulen (1935)]] or [[Lina Schulen]]? and does the real Kai's article get named [[Kai Schulen (real)]] or [[Kai Schulen (original)]] or, because most of the time in VC4 he uses a fake name (alias), should the that be the name of his main article?
One obvious issue with "most commonly used alias at the time of a specific game" becomes, if the character reappears in a later game under a different name... otherwise for wikis that only care about a single game, this strategy usually wouldn't be too problematic.
For Rosie's name, just have Rosie redirect to her full name.
I think regarding Kai Schulen's name for the moment, we should keep it as is until the game has its worldwide release for MAJOR spoiler reasons. It can still be mentioned in the story header of course but since Sega is officially naming her Kai Schulen, it would be a safe bet to keep that name for her and just keep the real details in the article page with that spoiler warning.
I didn't really understand the context at first, but I understand what you mean now about Kai Schulen. With regards to the actual Kai Schulen, probably for now it'd be best to refer to him by a title I guess? Do they ever mention him as the fake Kai's brother? I feel like there needs to be more info about the brother before I can proceed with a decision about it.
Alright, I read some more spoilers, and can confirm the real Kai (who is still alive in 1935) is the fake Kai's older brother, and he goes by a different name now (his identity in 1935 is a way bigger spoiler than the fact that the girl's actual name is "Lina").
Now my proposal is to split into three primary articles:
Let [[Kai Schulen]] be the article of the overall continuous "identity", including the original person as well as the pretense kept up by the sister.
Let [[Lina Schulen]] be the article of the sister as a person, which includes when she lived under her birth name of Lina and the later assumed identity of Kai.
For the article name of the article of the real Kai Schulen as a person, use the (super spoiler) name he assumes during 1935 EC. The article will include his former life as Kai up until 1934, plus his life under the new name afterwards.
A slightly similar concept for an "identity" article can be seen in w:c:codegeass:Zero, although Zero was never a person's real identity in that show.
Thoughts on the three article idea?
ps. Also, while I can more or less appreciate the concern over "major" spoiler, I want to point out that about 1 month prior to the game's release, Japanese players already know that the girl's name is actually Lina, and that Kai is somebody else's name. And before players get to chapter 3 (the first 5 chapters are still just setting up the premise/introduction of the story, the main plot/drama doesn't really begin until chapter 6), players have met the real Kai in a flashback and most ppl can easily figure out what his new identity is in 1935 (we just don't know his relationship with Lina yet, nor the reason Lina is pretending to be him). So while it counts as spoiler, the reveal isn't a plot twist at all.
About the only thing I guess wrong from playing the trial version was I guessed the real Kai died, which by the interlude before chapter 3 when I saw what he looked like in 1934 I realized I guessed wrong. "Oh you are the real Kai? I guess I know who you are then..."
Ahh, that does make things a bit more clearer. Thanks for finding out the details about Kai. We can expand upon details about the three without having to compromise information on the characters. As I looked at more examples, it seems that the three article suggestion is the best way to go about it right now.
So if that's the case regarding the spoilers, then I guess it'll be fine to just have the spoiler heading. Thanks again for outlining the details. Would you happen to have any pictures of the first Kai if that's the case?
I do have pictures of the first Kai. In fact, his picture is already on the wiki somewhere... (but I do have his old picture too, you can easily tell they are the same person)
While I think the three-article split makes a lot of sense, I'm less certain about whether to make the brother's article using his new name, or make it [[Kai Schulen (real)]]... (In either case one will redirect to the other)
We can always move the article and swap the direction of the redirect anyways.
Hmm, with Kai Schulen being the article for the overall identity, I think we either should have no picture, a picture including all the different people who have used this identity, or a gallery of pictures of the different people who have used this identity.
I don't think article names like [[Chapter 06: Infiltrate Imperial Territory (Pt.1)]] are suitable nowadays, with this wiki encompassing multiple games.
I want to separate story/lore from gameplay. Chapters that contain two battles right now gets split into Pt1 and Pt2, but from a story perspective that's usually not a natural split. It is an unnatural way to split the chapter because whoever designed it didn't want to put two gameplay battle missions into the same article (the motivation is understandable). I think the solution is to each separate gameplay battle mission into their own articles, while having chapter articles (story articles) reference the battles, and the battles contain super brief explanation of the background story context while linking back to the chapter articles.
What complicates matter even more is, at least with the Trial version's Chapter 1 and 2, each battle mission itself is divided into two parts. So if a certain chapter has two battle missions, and the battle mission themselves have two parts, it can get rather awkward to refer to the second part of the first mission etc under existing naming scheme.
My VC4 arrived, so after I get home from work I'll start playing and add more notes and experiment with new formats that might be different from how VC1~VC3 articles are currently structured. As you see me trying to organize things for VC4, please bring up any thoughts/feedbacks/concerns earlier rather than later (-:
Yeah, it can get pretty cluttered very fast with what we currently have.
I agree with the points you bring above regarding the naming, and the content of the pages. In general, I always thought there should have been an actual page summarizing story content solely so I think I could come up with something for that. Regarding the mission pages, brief explanation would probably come from how the game summarizes the mission so we can use that and tie in the story as a link in the page somewhere.
Have fun with the game!! I have to wait until Fall for my copy so totally jealous!! xD And I certainly will, whenever I'm not at work. :)
Take a look at the general visual concept of tabs on w:c:ReLife:Chizuru Hishiro (in the infobox) and see if the way they stack on multiple lines is something you would be interested (ignore exact color, size, shape etc) to be applied to the article tabs on pages like Alicia Melchiott. It's just some CSS and DOM formatting tricks.
To be completely frank, the article tabs here look simply like "links in boxes" to me, especially when they go more than one line...
Ooooh, I'd be interested in something like that for the article images actually. Visual-wise for the tabs, it could look a bit more like that just so it won't have that cluttered feel because it stretches all the way to the page's end.
I'd be down to have something like that in place. I'm still thinking of a better way to incorporate the parent tab template but feel free to experiment.
My recent edit on Edy Nelson (which was reverted) highlights certain issues I have found with certain disambiguation pages on this wiki.
First of all, the Edy Nelson in VC1 is the same character as the Edy Nelson in VC2, VC3, and VC4. The existing wording on that disambiguation page implies that the Edy Nelson in VC1 and the Edy Nelson in VC2 are different characters, which is misleading/wrong.
Second, given the wording "The character from Valkyria Chronicles 2", when I click on the "character" link, I would be expected to be taken to a character page. However, when I do click on that link, the first sentence I read is "This is not a character page." That is disjarring and confusing and weird.
My edit on the page was an attempt to address the above two points. If you understand the issues I raised but think the specific wording I chose were not good, I would like to discuss alternate wordings to address the issues. If consistency throughout the wiki is a major concern, I am willing to spend a weekend cleaning up other pages as well.
(a related third point would makes the above two points all moot... but I'll split that into a separate post as a separate discussion)
Hmm, to address your first point, I think the reasoning as to why things began being named that way was because of this thread. The issue was that Edy's cameo wasn't canon but Edy's appearance was, so I guess that's why Edy (VC1) and Edy (VC2) happened.
In terms of your second point, what you stated makes sense to me. Pretty straight-forward actually. I will revert the page back although I do think the wording could be better relayed for that cameo part. But if nothing else comes to mind, just keeping it is fine as well. It will serve as precedent for the other character disambig pages.
Consistency is indeed a pressing issue for the wiki. Sometimes better and more efficient ideas/restructurings come along so it's always nice to stay on top of that for hopefully all of the pages. I'd also like to thank you for your efforts and your contributions to Valkyria Chronicles 4. Maybe I may need to look over some pages here and there but otherwise, your contributions have been quality from what I've read. Your help with keeping consistency would be greatly appreciated.
Feel free to contact me if you need any assistance or have anything you'd like to discuss, change-wise. I can also be reached at the Discord. Once again, welcome to the wiki! :)
Thanks for the feedback on my thoughts and my edits so far.
On to my third point, with a suggestion that potentially makes the earlier first two points moot...
"Edy Nelson (VC1)/Edy Nelson (VC2)" is quite an awkward article name. Assuming we stay with sub-article structure, I would argue at least "Edy Nelson" does not need to be repeated after the slash. Kind of like "Edy Nelson (VC1)/Gallery" doesn't need to be "Edy Nelson (VC1)/Edy Nelson Gallery".
Overall, I think the subpage article structure works well for the character articles, but the disambiguation notation becomes redundant when combined with the use of subpaging. I would argue that (as a first step reorganization) it would be sufficient to have the following naming scheme:
where Edy Nelson would be the primary character article (and eliminate the disambiguation page). Because each of the articles already have the parent tab setup, it serves as a self-explanatory disambiguation nav for people interested specifically about Edy's involvement/cameo/stats in VC2 etc.
I argue this scheme is rather self-explanatory, intuitive, and reduces friction (unnecessary links to a disambiguation page increases friction when browsing the wiki).
On a related fourth point, and this one I recognize as being slightly more controversial, I want to advocate a separation of "lore / backstory" from "game". This isn't specific to characters, and I would like to illustrate the concept using Lancaar as an example. Lancaar's in-game lore description is currently embedded in the article Lances (VC1). However, Lancaar also appears in VC2, VC3, and VC4. The VC2 and VC3 articles do not have a description for Lancaar and do not mention it is a recurring weapon model from past games. On the other hand I also feel those articles are getting too cluttered for people interested in just looking up stats.
So what I've done, using the VC4 lance article as a prototype, is to setup Lancaar as its independent article, and simply linking to it. Separation of lore and game stats.
When applying this concept to characters, it would mean Edy Nelson would only be the general character article, whereas her VC1-specific info/stats etc will be split into a separate Edy Nelson/VC1 article (even though VC1 is her primary appearance).
For characters like Selvaria and Maxmillian, their primary articles text would be written from an encyclopedia editorial style (of canon information only), without explicitly distinguishing between the different games (individual games can still be mentioned in the references section, trivia section, and infobox). The "game-independent" writing style already exist for articles like Invasion of Gallia, where relevant pieces from VC1 and VC3 are combined together to tell a coherent story without separately referring to each game. I want to use that as an example for the primary character articles (especially Selvaria).
This separation can feel/get cumbersome when dealing with characters who only appear in one game ever, which I see as the biggest potential drawback. One option is to not do the split for characters who only appeared in one game, although I would advocate still setup the split, but just transclude the game-specific stuff at the bottom of the primary character page until they appear in a second game.
Regarding your third point, I agree with that particular change as the names and the navigation are getting kinda tedious at best. It would also reduce the need for a disambiguation page so I'm all for it!
Although I do agree Lancaar should have its own page (a majority of the weapons should have their own pages), I think the lore should be kept on those general weapons pages just because it gives much more breadth to the list. It's a feasible amount of flavor text that I don't think there'd be much of a hindrance having it on the page. If we're looking to replace page bloat however, probably would consider looking into tabbing out the separate headings.
Having the Edy Nelson/VC1 would also solve a consistency issue so I'm fine with that change.
Hmm, you just described my issue with having that format for the story lol. But yes, I was looking into having it more of an overall story description for each character page like that. Besides, we don't have much to say about Selvara in VC2 other than her being unlockable content. I do agree that certain other character pages (i.e. VC1-exclusive characters) may suffer from that kind of format because they're conditional but we'll see how it goes when we get to those pages. I'm in favor of implementing that style but it needs to be consistent and I'd prefer having all of the information available about the character in a story if possible. Timelines will be difficult to figure out however with the retcon, so we can be more lenient with some stories. I think also anime-wise, maybe it'd be best to distinguish as it doesn't necessarily follow canon.
Retcons and difference in the anime I think can be covered in a trivia section at the bottom of the page, while retaining the overall encyclopedic feel of the main article text.
Multi-phase consistency plan for characters pages:
Phase 1 - start with characters who have multiple cannon appearances
Phase 2 - work on characters who have multiple appearances
Phase 3 - work on "core" characters (subjective criteria, but as an example any squad member who can permanently die due to player action/choice I would consider not "not core")
Phase 4 - work on remaining characters
I just got notified that my VC4 has shipped last night. If it arrives by this weekend, then I will prioritize adding VC4 info to the wiki first. Otherwise I'll start working on character articles.
As for weapons, for the VC4 weapon articles I'd like to try out not adding the flavor text to the stat lists for now (which is what most of our VC2 and VC3 weapon stat list articles are currently doing as well) and only link to the weapon articles and see how that goes. Once I'm done with VC4 and with character articles, we can come back and look at whether to add the flavor text into the weapon stat listing articles again.
A member of the Imperial Science Institute’s special test unit, “X-0.” A special duty captain, she is a Valkyria who possesses miraculous ability, and can even has the power to destroy a tank with a single blow. She was forced to live as an experimental body and was unable to build up normal human relations, so she does not like to associate with others. She appears cold, cruel, and silent, but given that she was at the Valkyria Experimental Facility up until just before she was assigned to X-0, she is mentally immature and ends up revealing her emotions. While there are some who treated her as a normal human after escaping her life as an experimental body, her long stay at the Experimental Facility caused her to developer a strong inferiority complex, and as a result she seeks out the warmth of others. She is also a being of legend on the battlefield revered as “Witch of the Snowstorm” for the way she enters and leaves the battlefield with a snowstorm. She is accompanied by a wolf named Fenrir, who is a friend from her time at the Experimental Facility.
The commanding officer of the Imperial Army’s independent gang known by the name “Ausbruch.” He is a lieutenant colonel. He is OK with anything as long as it interests him and does not bother with trivial matters, but will fixate on important things and hunches to the very end. In that sense, he will obediently follow his brimming curiosity. Because he believes in his own intuition and keen nose to make quick decisions and take action, he makes mistakes from time to time and tends to jump to conclusions, but that is also the reason for his great success and one of his personal charms. Since he lost his mother at a young age and grew up under the protection of the townspeople, he fights with the strong desire to protect the people living in the Empire, as well as a strong conviction to protect his homeland. He relentlessly pursues Squad E, which he calls “Femme Fatale.”
A special duty captain among the tactical officers in the Imperial Science Institute’s special test unit, X-0. He is a man with great confidence in himself, who is always calm and has a strong spirit that does not frighten. He judges all matters and takes action with a cool and dry attitude, but if his opponent exceeds his expectations or the like, he rides that emotion and loses sight of his surroundings. He always thinks he is right and has a strong determination to see things through. Due to a leg injury, he cannot participate directly in battle, but Belgar, who acknowledges Forseti’s talents and invited him to join X-0, he acknowledges Forseti as someone with clever and rational ideas that remind him of himself.
Supervisor of the Imperial Science Institute’s special test unit, X-0. He is the top executive at the Imperial Science Institute, which develops various heavy weapons according to the Empire’s requests. As a noble from a country annexed by the Empire, he has no feelings of patriotism for the Empire, but has had interest in science and technology since childhood. He procures funds from the Empire in order to acquire that technological strength for the military and continue his own studies. He both a natural politician and stubborn, and established a position in the military and gained fame in order to help his family name. He has the authority of an admiral, and with X-0 as the chess pieces under his direct control, he does whatever he desires on the battlefield.
A special group member of the Imperial Science Institute’s special test unit, X-0. Like Chiara, she works under Belgar and was raised alongside Chiara like a sister in the Imperial Research Institution from a very young age. As a bodyguard under Belgar’s direct control, she is assigned the duty of eliminating Belgar’s enemies. Because her body has been strengthened through repeated “adjustments,” her spirit is partly broken and she lacks a humanistic way of thinking. She is sadist who loves to torment others, but is the malicious type who likes to drive the enemy into a corner mentally rather than through direct violence.
A special group member of the Imperial Science Institute’s special test unit, X-0. She was raised alongside Nikola like sisters in the Imperial Research Institute overseen by Belgar. She is obedient to Belgar and will abide by any command, but given that Belgar is both someone she owes her life to and a “father,” she only considers it natural. Also, harsh “adjustments” await for when she does not abide by his commands. She has a strong desire to be recognized by Belgar, who she calls her “father,” and not be cast aside, and often acts selfishly. Like Nikola, she loves to torment others, but unlike Nikola, Chiara does so with straightforward and relentless physical violence.
Here’s the info on the rest of the Federation characters
An energetic and brave civilian girl who finds her way into Squad E. When they found her, she could not remember anything except her name. Much about her is unknown, including the events that led to her involvement with Squad E. Rather than have a child-like selfishness, she is a kind-hearted character who cares about those around her. She is offered protection under the care of the military physician, but proposes to help by taking care of meals, laundry, cleaning, and so on. Her cheerful personality has also made her popular among the helper soldiers, who nicknamed her “Ange.”
Edinburgh Army 101st Division No. 1 Battle Brigade No. 32 Armored Ranger Battalion Squad F leader and first lieutenant. She was in the same class as Claude at Edinburgh Military Academy, and graduated second in their class. She worked and studied very hard to graduate at the top of her class, but was not able to surpass Claude. Since then, she sees Claude as a strong rival who she believes was chosen by mistake, insisting that her own abilities are superior. Due to her father’s influence, she has a strong sense of elitism, and values the chivalrous spirit of a fair battle. On the other hand, she can be stubborn and persistent about trivial thin, but there is no doubt she is a skilled military officer. Minerva was actually promoted earlier than Claude, and is his senior first lieutenant. She is sociable and kind to others—except Claude.
Edinburgh Army 101st Division No. 1 Battle Brigade No. 32 Armored Ranger Battalion Squad E medical officer and corporal. Quiet and kind, she’s popular among the troops for her soothing smile. Since she grew up in an all-male household, she is particularly skilled in the treatment of men, and patches up the injuries that come her way with a smiling face. She hopes to go to medical school, but is volunteering to serve in the military in order to help her family.
Edinburgh Army 101st Division No. 1 Battle Brigade No. 32 Armored Ranger Battalion Squad E medical dog and mascot of the unit. He was originally a stray found by the squad. He became attached to Claude and company, and joined Squad E. He is a brave dog who will fearlessly run to the battlefield even during gunfires and bombings to aid injured soldiers. He cannot ignore the weak and will run to their aid against better judgment. He is prideful and gets angry when people pat his head, but behaves courteously to soldiers who give him food (especially women). He sees Claude and company as rookies, and feels obligated to help them when he senses danger. However, such thoughts do not reach Claude and company, who see Ragnarok as a friendly, foolish dog.
I also found out about this thing they’re giving out for it as well. It’s something called the Valkyria Chronicles 10th Anniversay Memorial Pack, to celebrate the VC franchise’s ten years.
It includes a soundtrack featuring music from the past three games, an illustrated art book, and get this: a DLC mission where Squad E ends up teaming up with a certain squad for an important mission. And that squad is...drum roll please (drum roll) Squad 7!
Okay. Well first off Here’s the info I’ve found for the four Squad E characters first.
Edinburgh Army 101st Division No. 1 Battle Brigade No. 32 Armored Ranger Battalion Squad E squad leader and tanker. A first lieutenant. He is a serious, passionate, and caring commanding officer. He is a talented individual who graduated at the top of his class at Edinburgh Military Academy. He has no military shortcomings, and in addition to military skills, he has an animalistic intuition in regard to the weather and climate. His “Revelation of the Wind,” a perfect guess of the change in weather from a few minutes to several days later, often ends any stalemate. He has a strong determination to accomplish his objective, and even in the face of a difficult mission, inspires his comrades with his fiery determination.
A member of the Edinburgh Army 101st Division No. 1 Battle Brigade No. 32 Armored Ranger Batallion’s Heavy Weapons Support Team and a grenadier. A second lieutenant technician with great scientific ability, who is prideful and has great confidence in herself, and is a genius in Ragnite engineering. She specializes in mental arithmetic and physical calculation, and thus exhibits talent in ballistic calculation as a gunner. She and Claude are childhood friends, but it seems that something that occurred in the past, as they are currently not on speaking terms. Before the war, her Ragnite engineering talent enabled her to skip a grade and advance to the University of the United States of Vinland. She is positive and cheerful, and ambitious in that she pushes forward without fear of failure.
Edinburgh Army 101st Division No. 1 Battle Brigade No. 32 Armored Ranger Battalion Squad E division officer and Assault soldier. His rank is sergeant. He is aggressive and quick to get into fights, and talks with a rough tone. Since his people, the Darcsen, once devastated the continent, they are still persecuted to this day and do not have surnames. His physical ability is very high, to the point where he calls himself “Immortal Raz,” and both his physical strength and agile nature make him incredibly efficient as a soldier. He tends to be misunderstood due to his clumsy personality, but he is extremely caring of his friends
Edinburgh Army 101st Division No. 1 Battle Brigade No. 32 Armored Ranger Battalion Squad E division officer. She is a sniper master sergeant. She is Claude, Raz, and Riley’s childhood friend, and is usually silent and blunt. With the nickname “One Shot Killer,” she is a prodigy sharpshooter whose eyes conceal a strong purpose. Also, her physical strength is second to none when compared to a common soldier. While she may sound mannish and curt when she speaks, she is actually very mature and kind. She loves fresh-made bread.